Wednesday, May 18, 2005

Dembski's Achilles' Heel (I.D. XXIV)

Of late I have been scrutinizing William A. Dembski's argument in Intelligent Design that nature's "complex specified information" (CSI) vouches for God's design in the results of biological evolution. The Fruits of Flow (I.D. XXIII) was my most recent post along these lines. In it, using an argument based on earlier posts in the series, I decided that CSI alone is insufficient to Dembski's purpose.

I said that an informational "event" that possesses sufficient complexity (read, improbability) and whose pattern (as its "specification") can be derived from "background information" independent of the event itself does not necessarily imply design. For example, an adaptational event that is ratified by natural selection possesses the requisite complexity, and its target pattern, Darwinian fitness itself, serves admirably as an independent specification. So such an event is CSI ... and it is not produced by direction or design.

I also said that the type of self-organization Stuart Kauffman proposes in At Home in the Universe when he talks of life's origin in collectively autocatalytic sets combines the requisite complexity with the requisite specification. In this case, the independently specifiable target pattern is catalytic closure, in which the production of new copies of every protein in the set is facilitated by the presence of one or more of the set's other proteins. Catalytic closure (plus a handful of other necessities, such as a rudimentary cell wall) turns a prebiotic soup into a protocell that can self-reproduce ... and it is a pattern that is independently specifiable based on background information.

Here again, I said, is an example of Dembskiyan CSI that is not designed.

And it is more, I now wish to add. I think self-organized complexity is the fundamental Achilles' heel of Dembski's argument to design.


Crucial to Dembski's argument is his idea that nothing in the natural world can create nature's own CSI — not natural law, not chance, not any combination of the two. He uses reasoning based on the determinsim of mathematical functions to show that law (i.e., necessity) only moves CSI around; it doesn't create it. Likewise, chance cannot be reasonably ascribed as a source of CSI when it, the CSI, is vastly improbable. Furthermore, in a clever proof, Dembski shows that combinations of necessity and chance are impotent to originate CSI.

What he misses is that lawful behavior à la Kauffmanian self-organization can turn complex unspecified information into CSI. It can fabricate a previously absent specification as an emergent property of a self-organizing system.

For example, when a set of proteins in a prebiotic soup becomes sufficiently complex, it gains catalytic closure as an emergent property that then undergirds self-reproduction, heritable variation (generational changes in the roster of proteins in the set), and Darwinian evolvability.


Another way to look at it is that self-organizing systems "export entropy." Entropy is disorder, the opposite of information.

Entropy is a construct in both information theory and, in the physical sciences, thermodynamics and statistical mechanics. When Kauffman says self-organization produces "order for free," he is saying, I think, the same thing as that such systems export entropy. For they are canonically open, nonequilibrium systems that take in food and energy and expel waste. I imagine that this dissipative process can be understood both thermodynamically and in terms of the flow of information.

As I hope I succeeded in showing in Information, Order, and Entropy (I.D. XXI), the exportation of entropy "creates" information only in a local sense. That is, when you mentally place the system in question inside a tight spatial frame and also within a narrow temporal bracket, it looks like new information magically appears: order for free.

For example, I said, if a system is framed as just a gas-filled cylinder-with-piston, omitting the external weight to which the piston attaches and which conserves the entropy exported by the piston, and if you bracket the system temporally such that it is "born" at the beginning of the piston's inward counterstroke and "dies" at the end of that counterstroke, it looks as if the entropy of the system decreases over the system's "lifetime." During this span of time, order and information emerge magically within this notably open system.

Globally, however, no new order or information is created; Dembski is right on this point. Removing the spatial frame and temporal bracket that we have placed around the physical "system" and its "lifetime," we can easily see this.

But never mind. Locally, there is within a self-organized living system an anti-entropic "order for free," and, to that system, this is what counts.


Kauffman hopes someday he can be empirically proven right when he says that collectively autocatalytic sets of proteins are very, very likely to appear in a primordial soup. If so, they would furnish nature with her first lifelike entities, which could then go on to leverage heritable variation and evolve, Darwin-style, under the aegis of blind natural selection.

If this is what happened on the early earth, then somehow, at some point in time, the evolution of these first protocells introduced within the cells a genome made of DNA, and true Darwinian evolution began. But, at first, there was (Kauffman says) no separate genome. In biologists' lingo, there was at first no distinction between the "genotype" and the "phenotype."

Possibly the inclusion of a separate genome happened in the way some biologists hypothesize for the origin of cell nuclei: the originally nucleus-free cells "ate" other cells and forevermore turned those cells into their nuclei.

But, no matter. What is crucial here is that the very first step to a biosphere that could then go on to evolve through mutation-cum-natural-selection was (if Kauffman is right) a self-organized one. By sheer chance — but with notably high probability — enough proteins got together to form a collectively autocatalytic set, and bang!


So life is, first and foremost, an entropy exporter. It staves off disorder and death by creating, locally to itself, order for free. Bounded by its own birth and death, and within its own cell walls, it does what Dembski says it cannot: create information.

Never mind that it actually "steals" this information from abroad, and someday will have to put it back. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust ... but meanwhile, life flourishes in the here and now.

This is why I say that, so viewed, life itself provides Dembski's argument to intelligent design with its Achilles' heel. True, no information within nature as a whole can be created by nature. But place part of nature within an appropriate spatial frame and apt temporal brackets, and if self-organization chances to transpire within that locality, life and evolvability emerge. Creatures learn to export their own entropy, defy all logic, and thrive.


This is not to say that there is no God. Nor is it to say that unaided nature can, evolving as Darwin proposed, produce the irreducible complexity which Dembski and his cohort Michael Behe insist organs like an eye or a wing represent.

I don't claim to know for certain whether the eye, to take one oft-cited example, is irreducible complex. If it is, then that would very likely mean natural selection, which can account for only cumulative complexity, would be walled off from it.

But Darwin's defenders, Richard Dawkins prime among them, claim the eye is only cumulatively complex.

I can't resolve that dispute. Furthermore, I feel little motivation to try. For I happen to believe in God, even if Dawkins is right.

Even if the eye, or the wing of a bird, or sonar in bats actually developed by the ultra-slow, step-by-step accretion of very minor changes, this fact to me does not exclude God from evolution. What it does do, I think, is exclude the provability of God in evolution. And that is quite a different matter.


Before embellishing that point, at this juncture I would like to mention one other thing. As of this present moment, it is a pure hunch of mine. If I read Kauffman aright, self-organization does more that just kick-start life and its consequent evolution. Once life begins, self-organization also potentiates evolvability itself.

By that I refer to such things in Kauffman's discourse as the "evolution of co-evolution." Kauffman presents a long, involved discussion of this topic; I won't rehash it here. The gist of it is that species in ecosystems co-evolve — they do a dance in which changes in one species keep step with changes in others. For example, when finches live by harvesting nectar from blossoms whose tubes lengthen over evolutionary time, so, too, do the bills of the finches.

Or, when frogs' tongues are adapted to zotting delicious flies whose DNA, in turn, adaptively "learns" to secrete oil from the flies' feet, the frogs' DNA will "learn" to roughen the surface of froggy tongues, to neutralize the slipperiness of the oil.

Such is co-evolution — a process which itself is fraught (Kauffman says) with self-organization. The same principles which guide any self-organizing system to the orderly, but not too orderly "edge of chaos" — the "place" where homeostasis and graceful evolvability emerge — apply to co-evolving ecosystems. Taken as a system-of-systems, an ecosystem at the edge of chaos possesses much more evolvability than would otherwise be expected. In a word, it is much more fecund a source of evolutinary change.

My hunch, then, is this: a self-organized, co-evolving ecosystem, poised at the edge of chaos, can over time and in conjunction with purely Darwinian principles produce results that seem, in retrospect, like "irreducible complexity."

For the nonce, accordingly, my answer to Michael Behe and others who point to irreducible complexity as a sign of God's intelligent design is this: first, you'd better show definitively that Stuart Kauffman's "laws of self-organization and complexity" can't account for it.


So, with this post, I intend to stop addressing Dembski's and Behe's arguments to intelligent design directly, at least for a while. I'd like to change gears and start talking about a larger view of questions raised by evolution. In this view, the key concept is not intelligent design, it is "divine action."

"Divine action" is an umbrella term used by theologians who inquire into such questions as, "Does God intervene in quantum events to turn their inherent uncertainty into the seeds of providential worldly change?" I myself am unconvinced that this is so, but some experts on science and theology say it may be.

Arthur
Peacocke's
Paths from
Science
Towards
God
As for myself, I tend to go along with those, like Arthur Peacocke, who say (see his Paths from Science Towards God) that divine action is a matter of "top-down causation" or "whole-part influence." More on that in later posts, but the basic idea is that the types of complex systems which Stuart Kauffman and others deal with have bottom-up emergent properties and they also have top-down holistic effects.

In the latter, influences on the system-as-a-whole "trickle down" to become influences on the component parts of the system. Those parts in turn may be complex wholes with their own internal trickle-down effects. Down through any number of tiers of emergent complexity, causative influence which began outside the system-of-systems can spread.

Imagine God as treating the world-as-a-whole as a complex system-of-systems. Into it, God occasionally feeds information. Peacocke says it is pure information, with no concomitant energy input that would invalidate the second law of thermodynamics. This new information trickles down from level to level of the world-system-as-a-whole and, by dint of whole-part influence, causes entities within the world to experience events which otherwise wouldn't be in the cards for them.

And so on. Because the world is made of complex systems that have self-organized à la the insights of Stuart Kauffman (whose research Peacocke mentions only in passing) we can conclude that this very bottom-up/top-down structure furnishes a way for God to influence what goes in within it.

Such divine causal influences, if they exist, are subtle and mainfestly beyond the ability of science to pin down. We would not expect them to qualify as creating complex specified information of the type Dembski expects.

But they might well give evolution a drift which Darwin, as a scientist, could never have explained.

19 Comments:

Blogger Evgeny Selensky said...

Eric,

Thanks very much for the post. As to Kauffman vs ID, I am asking myself the same question. I am very much in favour of ID and what I like about it in particular is its simplicity. However, Kauffmanian self-organisation is the hardest argument against it. Within the known limits, it is observable. I do not believe in chance guided by natural selection to have enough power to produce evolving life. Bio-complexity research shows clearly it is not probable (ample research evidence is available).

However, I want to draw your attention to particulars where the answer to our question may well lie.

1. A language is a sign of intelligence, isn't it? Well, at least our experience says so. DNA represents an example of a language. I simply can't think of any other example of a language for no-one that came about as a by-product of something else. On the contrary, any biosystem using a language shows at least some intelligence, collective or individual.

2. Self-organisation seems to be able to account for phylogenesis (although this is an open question to myself so far since I still believe phylogenesis is improbable), esp. in view of the fact that swarm intelligence type algorithms offer tremendous speed-ups compared against point pased search. However, I can see a major flaw in abiogenic soupists' reasoning in that not only do we have to account for evolution leading to further adaptation, but we also need to account for a system of initially unintelligent agents to first work out the non-trivial "rules of the game". If you think in terms of a team of baseball players, in a pure experiment a la Kauffmann, we should start off with a team of randomly running about dumb animals instead of experienced humans and a blade of grass intead of a baton. In other words, the flaw I am referring to is in the inability/unwillingness to truly exclude intelligence from the initial conditions.

3. Quite importantly, if we accept the logic of Kauffman to the full extent, we deprive ourselves of the meaning. Kauffman shares a pantheistic/Buddhist world view, whether he realises it or not. On the contrary, contemporary science stems from the efforts of Medieval Christian philosophers, and rests on the assumptions that (i) as spiritual reality is subject to laws, so is the material world, and (ii) humans, as an image of God, have the reasoning power to infer the laws of the material world from observation, which we should use in order to look after the world entrusted to us. If you remove this motivation pillar from underneath science, it will eventually cease to function, at least as we know it. It will become myopic, serving only to cater for our everyday needs.

3. To be correct, Behe does not claim that the eye is an irreducibly complex system. He rather says the eye is a system of irreducibly complex systems. This is what Dawkins does not (want to) realise. Does the eye work without the lens? Yes, it does. But how did it happen that the eye once aquired the lens, no Darwinist can account for so far. Maintaining the retina layout curvature alone requires complex protein-protein interactions, which either are there as a whole or not.

7:44 AM  
Blogger Evgeny Selensky said...

Eric,

I have just thought a bit more in relation to points 1-2 of my earlier comment. Life is characterised by semantic information passing from ancestry to progeny. The theory of semantic information exchange stipulates that there should be (i) transmitter/receiver of information, (ii) information itself (obvious!), (iii) a common alphabet, (iv) a common language, and, notably, (v) the agreed notion of the truth, i.e. what is to be considered noise and what is of value. In other words, the receiver is already aware of what it is expecting to get. For example, if you look at a Chinese text, if you don't speak Chinese, it is nonsense to you. Also, if you get a random sequence of letters you will rule out anything with which you are simply not familiar as jibberish, which may not be so to someone else who has different experience. It is how the living systems work out "the rules of the game", how they agree what to pass, how to encode it in an understandable way and what to assume as true/false that is of primary importance.

8:24 AM  
Blogger eric said...

Undisclosed,

Thank you for your insightful comments. In the years since I read the books I mentioned in my post, I have become more and more convinced that self-organization à la Stuart Kauffman is the best naturalistic counter to Intelligent Design à la Dembski and Behe.

Self-organization is a theory that has yet to generate a lot of hypotheses that are testable in the real world, however.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by "it is observable." On a computer screen, yes. In the natural world ... maybe, maybe not.

As for the need for some kind of intelligence to set the initial conditions of a self-organizing system ... I wondered about that when I read Kauffman's "At Home in the Universe." All of his computer models depended on him or his co-workers setting the initial conditions. One could argue that each self-organizing system in the natural world just "emerges" from a simpler one, "one level down" ... but there is the danger of infinite regress here.

I am under the impression that Darwinists believe the lens of the eye evolved from, basically, skin ... skin, that is, over a light sensitive spot which became the retina. If the skin were translucent and had the right associated musculature to deform it as necessary, it might evolve into a lens.

I don't know that I agree with you about the natural primacy of intelligence, or of linguistic/semantic intelligence in particular, though. Our intelligence could well have evolved, Darwinism-style. Our ability to use language could have been "exapted" a previously useful mental trait.

More significant to me than intelligence is consciousness. Having read the book by that title by David Chalmers and also Douglas Hofstadter's "Gödel, Escher, Bach" and "I Am a Strange Loop," I just don't think either author is right about an entirely natural origin of consciousness. (The two, admittedly, have opposing theories of consciousness.) I believe consciousness, in the highest, strictest sense of the word, is identical with the soul, and that the soul is God-given.

Allowing for a God-given soul pretty much vitiates the need for Intelligent Design to argue with Darwinism ... and it permits Stuart Kauffman's self-organized complexity to serve as "handmaiden" (Kauffman's word) to Darwin's natural selection without suggesting for one moment that there's no God.

8:24 PM  
Blogger Evgeny Selensky said...

Eric,

Thank you very much! That is really interesting. I think it was Max Born in the mid-20-th century who first said that physico-chemical explanations were no longer sufficient to explain life, not to mention intelligence ("Physics in the life of my generation"). And, of course, even more so for consciousness.

I think if we differentiate in this manner between body and soul, we run the risk of repeating the Appolinarian fallacy. St Gregory Palamas (an Orthodox Christian mystic of the 13-th century) argued that both our body and soul bear an image of God, of course as regards the body this must not be understood in the crude sense of ancient Greek anthropomorphism. God took on human flesh, not that of animals. Human flesh can receive grace, i.e. uncreated energies of God.

Of course, it is one thing to state that something is possible and quite another that it is probable. It might well be that God created matter so that it could evolve. Then the question for science is, to which degree can matter evolve?

Microevolution is observable. But in my estimation, Darwinism and Kauffman alike stretch this ability to the absurd extreme. I think so because I find it quite improbable in the presence of all available evidence, that nature can at large scale adopt the strategy of increasing complexity instead of just falling back to simplification where possible. I can point to the most recent research of Gauger at all on bacteria, which showed that the particular species they worked with did not choose even a very short path to new protein functionality but, on the contrary, "decided" to reduce the existing functionality.

Getting back from chaos to order is observable for inorganic matter (cristallisation, steady wave interference patterns, etc.). But what is chaos for biosystems. I think that largely it is death or malfunctionality/monstrosity. Experiments on fruit flies showed that no matter how wide the mutations were it was invariably either a (mutilated) fruit fly or a dead fruit fly...

On another point, I think that no experiment we can think of can disprove ID just because our experiments are a result of intelligent agency a priory :) Take as an example the work of Craig Venter with a synthetic DNA implanted into the cell. What does it prove, as far as our conversation is concered, apart from the fact that humans are clever enough to do such interesting things? But we can't disprove Darwinism either. On a broader scale, it is extremely difficult to absolutely rule something out as a possibility in science.

An indication of a theory in decline is its getting overly complicated. I think this has been the case for macroevolution over the past century.

Anyway, thank you very much for the great discussion.

6:38 AM  
Blogger eric said...

Undisclosed,

Thanks for your further comments.

Part One of my response:

As for the Apollinarian fallacy, I am not up on the theology here. My Catholic faith tells me the "we," each of us, are "made in the image and likeness of God." I take the bearer of the "image and likeness" to include the whole package, body plus soul. "Grace," in Catholic belief, is supposedly different from that which is spoken of in other Christian faiths. In Catholicism, it is basically any gift given freely to us by God.

My undestanding is that God made the material world in full knowledge that evolution would occur ... for what is the alternative? If there is an omniscient God (as I believe) and if evolution did occur (as I also believe) then the only other possibility, theologically speaking, would be that evolution — leading to Homo sapiens! — was brought about by Satan!

I disagree with you about the theoretical possibility of macroevolution (the natural, God-unaided origin of new species) being a stretching of microevolution theory (natural change within species) to an absurd extreme.

Evolutionist Jerry Coyne says in "Why Evolution Is True": " ... the issue is not whether macroevolutionary change happens — we already know from the fossil record that it does — but whether it was caused by natural selection, and whether natural selection can build complex features and organisms." He cites modern paleontology's filling in of the fossil record as evidence that macroevolutionary change does in fact occur. That it is powered by natural selection alone, as Coyne maintains, is more problematic.

It is less so, though, if you go along with the theory of self-organizing complexity à la Stuart Kauffman, as I do. If self-organization is the "handmaid" of natural selection, then nature is quite likely indeed to be able to produce new species solely by Darwin's "descent with modification."

Kauffman would not disagree with you that chaos for organisms (or for organs like the heart) is death, or at least near-death. Complex adaptive systems, he and his fellow complexity scientists say, can react to being thrown into chaos either by dying or by bouncing back toward the orderly regime. If the latter — an example would be the Cambrian explosion of biological phyla on the earth after the Permian extinction — new order gets invented spontaneously: "order for free."

True, some of the new "order for free" might be monstrosities that die quickly and leave no fossil record.

Yet I don't think scientists' negative "experiments on fruit flies" allow for the system being experimented on to function as a complex adaptive system in which "order for free" might be the expected outcome. Such a complex adaptive, nonlinear dynamical system is putatively capable of regaining its graceful poise at the "edge of chaos" all by itself, thus to generate new order involving a greater complexity that is survivable and sustainable. Such systems need not generate "monstrosity" à la Dr. Frankenstein.

4:16 PM  
Blogger eric said...

Undisclosed,

I couldn't fit my response to your most recent comment into 4,096 characters, so here is Part Two:

On disproving ID: Another reason that no experiment can disprove ID is yet more fundamental. ID posits a supernatural "designer." Such a supernatural entity lies entirely beyond the scope of the scientific method. Theorizing that such a designer exists generates no testable hypotheses that might (if the experiments were to "fail") disprove the theory.

Nor do I agree with you that evolution theory, whether Darwin's, Coyne's, Kauffman's, or whoever's, is "getting overly complicated." Yes, it has had any number of details filled in since the start of the 20th century. We now know (Darwin didn't) that DNA is the biochemical basis of heredity and mutation. We know that in addition to natural selection there exists directionless "genetic drift" in biological populations. We have heard from Kauffman and others about self-organized complexity ... which admittedly has yet to be verified experimentally. Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge hypothesized "punctuated equilibrium" throughout evolutionary history. In "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory," the later Dr. Gould shows why none of this can be considered a "fixing up" of Darwin's original theory to meet creationists' criticisms, since none of it alters the basic "structure" of the theory.

I like your comment about taking intelligent agency as an a priori necessity to all scientific inquiry. It's also, as Catholic theologian John F. Haught points out in "God and the New Atheism," a necessary precondition to all theological inquiry. Those preconditions are both a byproduct of faith qua faith, also known as "trust." We simply trust "that the natural world is intelligible and that truth is worth seeking." Neither article of faith can be proven or disproven. Those two (shall we call them) biases of the human mind allow science and theology — both of them! — to get off the ground.

Theology, per Haught, "responds to the question of whether the spontaneous trust that underlies every journey of inquire, including science, is justifiable." It answers the question, "Why should we trust our minds?" Why is the world intelligible to science? Why do meaning, truth, goodness, and beauty inhere in it? Science itself can never answer such foundational questions ... since positive answers to all of the above questions and others like them have to be foreordained in order for science itself to get off the ground.

Consciousness as tantamount to the soul. The a priori necessity of the intelligibility of the world and of the value of human inquiry. Meaning, truth, goodness, and beauty. All of these bespeak a God in heaven. Why, then, do believers feel they need to validate Intelligent Design? There is still a God, even if nature alone brought the various species, including our own, into existence.

4:17 PM  
Blogger Evgeny Selensky said...

Eric,

I enjoyed reading your posts. They are thought-provoking.

As regards your rhetoric question, I think the following. I believe in a God capable of creating everything by Himself without any need for mechanisms, schemes, etc such as pan-evolution. In my opinion, evolution essentially leads us to accept that matter can do without God (recall the famous response by Laplace to Napoleon Bonaparte's question about God). When I read the Scripture saying that God created the world, I do not need any intermediate very clumsy explanations like He did this through evolution. Moreover, evolution reduces God to a by-stander or at best an observer who once wound up the clock and retired. This is not Christianity but deism.

When I read the Bible's account of creation I feel like adhering to the patristic interpretation, which is both simple and profound. I am an Orthodox Christian priest and I am so glad that I can appeal to it in a discussion with you being a Roman Catholic, as we have many saints and holy teachers in common (those who lived before AD 1054).

Now about falsifiability of theories. I think there is nothing bad in the fact that a theory is unfalsifiable (BTW, macroevolution is not falsifiable either). Think of a spectrum at one extreme of which there are very simple ideal theories, on the edge of being false :), the ones that Einstein once spoke about, at the other extreme are irrefutable theories such as evolution or ID. Of course, we want something very simple. But here science is bounded by the fact that creation is not inherently simple. Only God is, in the strict sense of the word.

On a particular point, we are stepping on a very dangerous ground when speaking about the fossil records as supporting evolution. They are inconclusive, many paleontologists now admit.

I like Dembski's argument for Aristotle's reasoning (which Bacon did away with part of, which resulted in limitations to contemporary science).

Finally, about grace. The Christian Orthodox view is that it is uncreated energy of God. It can be received by man, which results in what is called theosis, i.e. the acquiring of God's likeness. Of course, in practice this is expressed by the gifts of God, which are a result of this process.

4:38 AM  
Blogger eric said...

Undisclosed,

Thanks again for your comments. I'm pleased and honored to learn that I'm conversing with an Orthodox Christian priest, Father! We do indeed share saints and Church fathers. Also, we share our earliest, most traditional doctrines.

"Within the Modern Synthesis school," says Wikipedia, "macroevolution is thought of as the compounded effects of microevolution. Thus, the distinction between micro- and macroevolution is not a fundamental one – the only difference between them is of time and scale." If enough minute hereditary change piles up in two separate populations of a species, then one or both populations may turn into new species, unable to interbreed with the ancestral species. This is "speciation."

Speciation is the aspect of macroevolution that most divides creationists from evolutionists.

Falsifiable? We know from fossils that new species appeared over time. Darwinists say it happened entirely naturally, with no divine agency involved. Natural selection, they say, sifted through countless genetic mutations, each making only the minutest of differences in host organisms' physical makeup or behavior. Time and time again, "new" (i.e., mutant) genes that happened to be adaptive passed into subsequent generations. The genetic changes accumulated over time. Eventually, given reproductive isolation, a distinct population became a wholly new species. The external isolation got mirrored in internal changes that served to keep the new species from mating with the old.

Here's a way to falsify the theory of evolutionary speciation. According to the theory, two existing species that are close "cousins" that recently diverged from a common ancestor should have a larger percentage of their DNA in common than do two species that diverged long ago. In fact — see this page — "the DNA of humans and chimpanzees is between 98 and 99% identical, while the DNA of humans and goldfish has much greater difference. If experiment showed that goldfish and humans had 99% similarity in their DNA but humans and chimps had only 60% similarity in their DNA, that would falsify evolution. Yes, evolution is falsifiable."

I don't personally find this a clumsy explanation for the origin of species. Stripped down to basics, it's elegant. If two populations of a living kind are held apart for long enough, they cease to be able to "be fruitful and multiply" together! Scientists then label each a separate species.

The idea that God doesn't superintend all this is consistent, I think, with the insistence on "free will" so characteristic of Catholic thought. If God "micromanages" evolution — how the natural world "behaves" — he would have to forcibly restrain himself from micromanaging how we ourselves behave. On the other hand, if there is free will, then there must be some sort of built-in barrier that limits how "intrusive" divine agency can allow itself to be in the world we live in. One Catholic theologian, Denis Edwards, has written in "The God of Evolution" of "a God who freely accepts the limits of the process of emergence" — "emergence" being a generalization of the idea of evolution. "God may not be free to overrule natural process," Edwards says, assuming that divine creation is in truth an act of "self-limitation in love." Edwards quotes theologian Lucien Richard: "Creation is an act of kenotic love; in creating, God limits self and allows a cosmos to emerge with its own autonomy."

That's not deism. In deism, the divinity that starts the ball rolling does not care what kind of trouble the ball gets itself into. In Christianity, Christ's death on the cross and resurrection attest to God's intense concern about the trouble we constantly get ourselves into.

12:37 PM  
Blogger Evgeny Selensky said...

Eric,

Thank you very much for your kind response. I'll divide my response in two because it's too big.

Yes, I am familiar with the basics of evolution. However, this is already a bit obsolete in light of the recent research in biocomplexity. Evolution started out elegant, I agree. But it is no longer, I am afraid. An increasing number of researchers are disillusioned with it. The situation today is akin to the beginning of the quantum mechanics era. Even Einstein could not be reconciled to the fact that on the nano-level, energy is passed in chunks. He was pursuaded that this must have simply been due to errors in the calculations.

The process of biological scrutiny started right after Darwin published "On the Origins of species". E.g. George Mivart was unhappy with it for a number of reasons which he stated straight away. Blythe argued that natural selection acted only to preserve the initial species blueprint, not to digress. As early as in the 50-ies of the last century by Soviet biologist Berg proposed nomogenesis. At roughly the same time, nomogenesis came about. People wanted to fill in the gaps in the originally solid theory of Darwin that started cracking under the pressure of new evidence.

If we want to talk about theology, I can point you to the writings of Fr Seraphim (Rose), which were among the first to make me think about this whole issue. He thought in terms of strict and literal interpretation of the Six days of Creation (hexaemeron). I sympathise with the simplicity of his reasoning.

Theologically, there are quite important consequences of macroevolution that I cannot accept as an Orthodox Christian. I will be brief. Firstly, it is the question of death. There are two points here: (1) In the primeval world there was no death and (2) universal death is the consequence of human sin. The early fathers of the Church agree on both (so we have a concensus patrum). The only exception I can think of is St Cyril of Alexandria, if I am not mistaken, who believed that no-death state was local to the garden of Eden whereas outside there was what Darwin would have called "survival of the fittest". However, for evolution death is natural. As an aside note, I believe simbiosis in nature today is a faint reflection of the primitive perfect order.

Secondly, I firmly believe that the genealogy of Christ does not include animals. See Luke 3:23-28 (the son of Adam, the Son of God).

If you take the whole body of the early Church fathers' writings, it does not leave us any grounds to include animals in the Divine Dispensation of Christ.

In my opinion, the argumentation involving preservation of free will, so to speak, refers only to humans in the context of their eternal salvation.

Yes, I am aware of the commonalities between the human DNA and that of the apes (in excess of 90%). But the story is not so clear. I can point you to a few problems. First, there are more than one DNA metrics. What does this figure show exactly? There are metrics, for which the difference between "cousin" species A and B is greater than that between vastly remote species which can give pictures of the sort: two fruit fly species are more different than mice and humans. Another very important issue is, what does DNA code up? According to contemprary biology, it is only proteins, the building blocks of organic matter. All things living in the same world, it is natural to expect them to have the same "bricks". This is because commonality ensures the possibility of metabolic reations, the basis of life. So the biggest difference is between procariotes and eucariotes, as far as I am aware.

8:12 AM  
Blogger Evgeny Selensky said...

Eric,

Continued from the previous post.

If you take an ant and a human, they will have chemically the same proteins (not only the composition but the structure and pattern as well). However, so far science has not been able to account for body plans. The ant and the human have vastly different body plans having the same proteins.

Another problem is the limited DNA alphabet involving only 4 letters. How many distinct words of a given length can we think of that contain up to 4 letters? 1 + ... + (n-1)! + n! Where n = 4. Not too many. This is why, taking ANY two species, there is at least 25% DNA commonality guaranteed (as far as I remember).

And yet another problem. If you take two species, differences in DNA sequences as large as 20-30% sometimes lead to absolutely NO body plan difference, so effectively you could not tell one from the other. However, the difference between the chimp and the human being less than a few percent stands out as very noticeable. And to my limited knowledge in this area, this pair of species is unique in this particular respect.

Dembski attributes the emergence of reductionist theories such as that of Darwin to the fact that Bacon who stood at the beginning of contemporary science did away with some aspects of Aristotle's reasoning. E.g. Bacon argued that science did not need to consider the ultimate purpose of a phenomenon. This resulted in reductionism a la Dawkins who argues that any natural phenomenon is decomposable. However, one can think of examples where "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". In contrast to reductionism, there should ALSO be top-down theories like ID to counterbalance the bias of the former. These theories should coexist. No preference should be given to either side, if we want to remain objective.

Common ancestry is not the only explanation of structure commonality possible. The commonality/closeness of design ideas would have equally resulted in the same. To me, this rings a bell with the theology of St Maximum the Confessor (7th century) who argued, perhaps in accord with Plato, that all material things have divine ideas behind them.

I have written something up recently to summarise my views.
It is unpublished as yet.

http://orthodoxchristian-blogger.blogspot.com/2011/03/open-questions-in-biology-exaptation.html

Take care.

8:14 AM  
Blogger eric said...

Father _______,

Thanks again for contributing many interesting thoughts and attitudes to our discussion.

I'm going to break my response up into chunks to avoid going over the limit on the number of characters allowed.

Chunk 1:

I'm not sure why you think many researchers are disillusioned with Darwin. I am under the impression from reading Jerry Coyne's "Why Evolution Is True" that the opposite is so. Stephen Jay Gould spent a lifetime countering the notion that the incessant talk among scientists about the details of evolution constitute any fundamental uncertainty at all concerning the basic fact that evolution happened.

In the remaining decades of the 19th century immediately following Darwin's publishing of "Origin of Species" in 1859, many simply could not accept as intellectually incomprehensible and morally neutral a mechanism as natural selection as the driving force of evolution. Many agreed that, yes, there had been "species succession" in the fossil record, but how could a "blind" force such as natural selection account for increasing biocomplexity, leading to man? (Especially when natural selection had been dubbed the "survival of the fittest," making us think of a nature "red in tooth and claw.")

There was also uncertainty as to what the "stuff" of biological heritability could be. And, whatever it was, how could it be subject to "undirected" change — or any change at all! — such that natural selection might be given a wide "random" palette of options to sift among? These were and are hard concepts to understand.

The sciences of complexity, of the sort proposed by Stuart Kauffman and others (see Roger Lewin's "Complexity"), cannot be correctly said to challenge Darwin's theory, merely to add another component, in addition to natural selection, that can help account for increrasing biocomplexity in a strictly naturalistic and scientific way (always assuming any hypotheses that derive from complexity as an unproven theory can one day be proven out).

More in the next chunk ...

11:26 AM  
Blogger eric said...

Father _______,

Here is Chunk 2 of my latest response to your excellent comments:

I cannot quite understand why a strict and literal interpretation of the Six Days of Creation is preferable. I'm not even sure the Creation story is so "simple." Genesis Chapter One withholds the details of how God did it, that's all. If we had all the details, either we would be unable to understand them or they would make the Six Days seem just as complex as Darwinian ideas about the last 4-plus billion years seem to most of us today.

That there was no death prior to the arrival of sin, which humans brought about by disobeying God in the Garden of Eden, does not really contradict Darwin, I imagine. The "death" being talked about by Paul and the Early Church is the opposite of "life" in the theological sense of that abundance which we are promised in Christ. We are indeed offered abundant "life" ... but that does not mean the mortician needs to find another line of work! Before original sin, there was no distinction between eternal life and our worldly lifetimes, since in the Garden that God had provided for us, "pre-apple" life among God's creatures went on perfectly and eternally. Then the serpent did his dirty deed, and worldly life/death became a separate category from everlasting life in the Kingdom of God .. or our missing out on same, due to sin.

Why wouldn't Christ's genealogy include animals? We know that Jesus was all-God and all-man, and that the only aspect of being human that Jesus lacked was the taint of sin. Well, animals, too, bear no taint of sin, since they lack souls, reason, consciousness, and the various other "higher" human characteristics that set us apart from them and make us alone appear "in the image and likeness of God." Jesus could have a long line of apelike ancestors and still be exactly who and what he is. For that matter, the same applies to Adam, who was created without sin. Can we not more properly imagine that God's "forming a man from the dust of the ground" was a long-term, evolutionary project that the Genesis storyteller turned into a stunning metaphor? After all, the story's intent is to "stun" us into belief, not to provide a scientific explanation.

God then breathed into Adam's nostrils the "breath of life" -- a God-given soul See above about the distinction between eternal life and the lifetimes we undergo here on earth. God did not so infuse "life" into the nostrils of the beasts ... but this is no reason to believe the beasts were not actually Adam's ancestors. They lacked souls, that's all.

As for DNA and protein measurments, I think you miss the point that the closeness or distance between any two species you care to name at random tracks marvelously well with how far apart Darwinists say those species are, based on their own investiagations of the fossil records, and also on the taxonomic "tree of life" that has been derived independently of DNA and protein analyses. Even vestigial DNA that no longer "codes" for actual characteristics of living organisms matches Darwinists' independently derived expectations in this regard. That is powerful evidence indeed that Darwinian evolution happened.

More in the next chunk ...

12:01 PM  
Blogger eric said...

Father _______,

Here is Chunk 3 of my latest response to your excellent comments:

I don't believe you are correct in saying an ant and a human have the "same proteins." Every protein an organism makes in its cells is "coded for" by a sequence of DNA nucleotides -- by way of "messenger RNA" (mRNA), which is what the DNA actually spins off. If two organisms "have the same proteins," it means the DNA is spinning off identical mRNA, which in turn spins off identical proteins. That can only happen when the organisms are of the same species. In fact, to be quite accurate, they must be identical twins (i.e., have identical DNA)!

If an ant had the same roster of proteins as a human, there emphatically would have to be no genetic difference between the two organisms.

If we assume that the body plan is controlled by the DNA and only by the DNA (via the spun-off proteins) then two organisms with different body plans cannot possibly have the same roster of spun-off proteins, manufactured in the same quantities and in the same order with respect to one another. Hence, they cannot possibly possess identically functioning DNA.

Still, there's no reason to expect that body plan similarities track precisely with the precentage of DNA in common. Only some of the DNA codes for body plan.To take a hugely exaggerated example, if two species har 99% DNA-identical but it is the other 1% that determines body plan, then the fact of the 99% DNA overlap has nothing to do with body plan. In fact, it is nowhere near that simple. My point is that you cannot use the degree of DNA match to predict the degree of body plan similarity.

As for the possible number of nucleotide sequences being small, making lots of DNA overlap inevitable, I must reassert the point that what counts is that species that are near each other in the family tree of life have significantly greater DNA overlap than do species that occupy more distant branches of the tree. In other words, if you start by arranging all living species in a single tree based on things like how recently the fossil record says they diverged from a common ancestor, and then and only then do you check to see how closely any two of the species' genomes match, DNA-wise, you get much closer DNA matches between closer cousins than between more distant relatives.

I agree with Bacon: Science need not (indeed, cannot) consider the ultimate purpose of a natural phenomenon. To know the purpose, we Christians take recourse to religion and theology, or at least to philosophy. Those are outside the scope of scientific methodology. Science is very limited in that way ... even if advocates of scientism or scientific naturalism seem blind to that fact.

More in the next installment ...

4:54 PM  
Blogger eric said...

Father ______,

Here's my 4th and final installment in response to your latest comments:

I agree with you fully that if Bacon's science, blind to meaning and purpose, led on to pure reductionism, it overreached. Holism and top-down explanations are indeed valid. Stuart Kauffman calls himself an "unrepentant holist," as I recall. But does this in itself re-admit God to the scientific world view? I for one say no. (But Anglican theologian Arthur Peacocke disagrees with my view on the matter in "Paths from Science to God.")

The divine idea behind material reality is the same thing as the divine idea behind the evolutionary capacity of that reality. Science is blind to any such divine idea ... which is fine, because that situation frees science to do what it's good at: figure out the laws of nature qua nature.

I imagine it's clear by now that I find it easy to compartmentalize science away from humanity's "more important questions."

One of these is Beauty. Science simply cannot decide what is or is not beautiful. Told that something is held to be beautiful, science cannot explain why. Even if human inquiry into aesthetics pays off to some extent, it's not a scientific inquiry at all -- it's a branch of philosophy. Beauty is fundamentally subjective, even if certain "laws" of aesthetics have been proposed. Subjectivity is preciesly where science per se comes up empty -- which is no surprise, since subjectivity is an aspect of the soul.

Scientists like to talk about this theory or that being "elegant." In so doing, they unwittingly attest to the soul.

Enough for now. I'll pore over your unpublished blog post later when I'm fresh ...

5:20 PM  
Blogger Evgeny Selensky said...

Eric,

Thank you very much for your posts! I can agree with many things you say. Notably, I wanted to appeal to Beauty as well at some point of our discourse :) However, I must say I cannot agree with your views on the tree of life. I prefer to think of it only in terms of mathematical relations revealing the similarity of design, not the actual ancestry. As I point out in my note I gave you the URL of, there has been absolutely NO empirical evidence of speciation in finely controlled lab settings in bacteria. That is considering very fuzzy borders between bacteria species and a long enough number of generations. A population of bacteria gives 10^4 generations a year, so the several decades the experiments have been conducted are equivalent to billions of years of the supposed anthropogenesis. No new species... In "The edge of evolution" Behe shows an interesting graph: the number of protein binding sites (effectively, new information) per generation (as far as I can recall). The point is that the number of sites in a single cell is 3 orders of magnitude greater than that encountered by blind mutagenesis over a sufficiently large number of generations. Behe terms this the edge of evolution. Yes, microevolution is there. However, it can account for only marginal effects while macroevolution is not, strictly speaking, observable. I am afraid, fossil records are not conclusive enough. The Cambrian explosition does not account for "the complex out of mutiple minute steps"... It is a great and sudden change. Darwin surely did not speak about anything like explosions. Evolution advocates for the opposite, steady infinitescimal blindly made changes automatically directed by natural selection. Paleontology emerged already with a Darwinist bias. The critical references I read pointed to some circular argumentation between biology and geology as regards the age of the Earth. It is not that clear. Every now and then I see articles titled like "Evolution is not what we thought it was", so it is constantly adapting. This is what I meant when I said it was clumsy. I think now we all need to step back and think.

Finally, the flagellum argument: certain biochemical units appear to be indivisible, i.e. they are either there or not. There are no intermediate stages in reality. Instead, we can see complexity gaps. All the attempted refutations of Irreducible Complexity are only hypothetical, to my knowledge.

Thank you very much indeed for this very interesting discussion. I think I have taken away a lot, as a result of it.

I am sorry for the typos in my posts. Notably, I wanted to say about nomogenesis (Berg) and orthogenesis. And of course, St Maximus the Confessor.

In the future, I will be accessible via my blog, to which I gave you the URL.

Take care.

5:49 AM  
Blogger Evgeny Selensky said...

Eric,

I just noticed a blunder in my previous post. Of course, I meant to say millions of years as regards anthropogenesis.

On a related point, I saw somewhere in the literature that somebody actually came up with a bound on the number of mutations necessary to produce the human eye starting off with a light-sensitive cell. It was actually more than the universally accepted age of the universe (4-5 billion years) would allow.

The strange thing to me is that I can see that mathematicians or people with technically inclined minds can more easily do away with Darwinian evolution as an idea than otherwise trained minds. An information theorist whose name escapes me now, as early as in the 1950-s proposed dealing with life as with a given just like with energy, matter or time.

7:00 AM  
Blogger Evgeny Selensky said...

Eric,

Many Thanks for your input on my blog. It was nice to see your comments there. Now you know my name :) My blog does not "google" so to speak and that is good. But yours does, so I would want to remain anonymous here :)

As regards Popper's falsifiability theory, I am familiar with it. The answer is ID is falsifiable. Please read these notes here:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/faq/

Falsifiability of ID boils down to showing that complex specified information can/cannot be purchased for free without intelligence. Show it can, and you essentially have falsified ID.

I am going to expand on all those science phylosophy questions in a different note. I just wanted to delve into the enought level of detail for the likes of me with a technical/engineering background in the note you read. I wanted to sort these issues out first of all for myself, for which I am also very greatful to you because you asked the right questions at the right times :)

I do not agree with you when you say ID is non-scientific, for the following simple reason. Even though the Designer cannot be subject to our experimentation, the end result of Creation is. We can analyse it by scientific means. When we cannot have multiple realisations of a process (in this case Creation), we are left with the scientifically legitimate option of analysing the available single one. The mathematical theory behind the complexity of available biosystems simply estimates the probability of them having been designed.

I am happy with the proposition that God has designed nature so that it can evolve, the only question being about the limits of the capability of evolution. In my opinion, information complexity analysis convincingly demonstrates that the boundaries for evolution are very tight. In other words, it is bounded to microevolution, i.e. adaptations within existing species.

Again, fossil records are a weak argument in favour of macroevolution because it is a bang rather than a steady process.

I will write up a follow-up note to address your phylosophical aguments in detail in due course. I want to be able to trace the idea of pan-evolution from as far back in history as possible.

7:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Eric (from Undisclosed),

In case you did not get my response to your comments on my blog. If you did, disregard this post.

Something happened to my blog: it has been removed.

Many Thanks for your input.

I cannot agree with you on non-falsifiability of ID. It is falsifiable, see

http://www.uncommondescent.com/faq/

I cannot agree with you on ID not being scientific either, for a simple reason. Even though the Creator is not subject to scientific analysis, creation is. We can analyse it scientifically, make inferences, etc. When we cannot have multiple realisations of a process, we can analyse the available single one. Complexity of available bio-systems demonstrates a high enough probability of intelligent agency in much the same way as it does in forensics.

Though I have nothing in principle against the proposition that God has created life so it can evolve, evidence suggests that evolution is tightly bounded to micro-effects (i.e. roughly those within species).

And again, fossil records are a weak argument in support of macroevolution because it reveals something that is entirely opposite to the assumtions of evolution, the latter being minute changes over vast periods of time accumulating and producing tangible effects. The Cambrian exposion shows emergence of a wide diversity of body plans almost instantaneously (in geological sense).

8:59 AM  
Blogger eric said...

Father,

I am sorry your blog disappeared, but I cannot imagine how that might have happened.

I have glanced at the link you provided that putatively shows ID theory to be falsifiable, but I think the claim of falsifiability that is made there uses a different standard of falsifiability that theoretician of science Karl Popper used. Popper insisted that to falsify a theory requires either an empirical observation which refutes a hypothesis the theory has spun off, or an experimental result that does the same.

Falsifiability-by-logical-argument doesn't count.

Neither does falsifiability-by-statistical-calculation.

Neither does arguing that the other theory to which ID theory is being compared isn't falsifiable, either. Darwinian theory is in fact falsifiable, anyway, it just isn't always testable ... and Popper held that a lack of being testable does not disqualify a hypothesis or a theory from which the hypothesis has been derived. Nor does it ipso facto make the theory or the hypothesis non-falsifiable.

ID theory says a designer must have been behind certain evolutionary developments because for any particular one of those developments to have eventuated is impossible, or else super-unlikely, owing to how high and how sudden a step up in complexity would have been needed. That's an argument, not a theory.

Furthermore, arguing, from the uniqueness of the creative act by the putative designer of the universe, that it therefore ought to be given a bye in terms of whether it is falsifiable by experiment or observation is to set aside Popper's notion of falsifiability entirely. It tinkers with the very foundations of science. Experimenting on the "end result of creation" is fine, but it doesn't say one thing about the reality of the designer unless Popper's meta-scientific ground rules concerning falsifiability are adhered to, chapter and verse.

3:45 PM  

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